Posts by Cold Steel

14

Are people like Abraham, Isaiah or Jeremiah in heaven ?

by Durden in

i am discussing with my father about various subjects and this is one of them.. what arguments can i use to support this "doctrine" (so to say) ?.

i am looking for texts to support this (i knew quite a few, i just to learn something new).

thanks in advance.

Cold Steel

Mp: Both times [Abraham] let his sister be screwed by the king of Abelmalek(sp) & pharaoh.

I assume you mean figuratively. Abraham never compromised his wife's virtue in the stories.

19

Experience regarding Elders being spirit appointed

by Comatose in

i was told recently about a situation where an elder did not get recommended to serve upon moving to a new hall.

i think he left for a job.

but, something internal politics happened in the old hall and he was not recommended.

Oubliette: It didn't take long to see that "Holy Spirit" had nothing to do with anything. It didn't take long to see that "Holy Spirit" had nothing to do with anything. ... One example involved a young man that had been disfellowshipped. He attended meetings for a while, met with us, told us exactly what we wanted/needed to hear and was reinstated. Even during the reinstatement meeting I had the distinct feeling that he was insincere and only telling us what he needed to say to get reinstated so that his family could have contact with him without getting themselves into trouble with the elders.

Well, in his defense, who could blame him for wanting the company of his family? Ritual shunning is a horrible doctrine and is completely opposed to Christianity.

Regarding the Holy Spirit, the premise of its role in a church would be based on the legitimacy of the church. The Jehovah's Witnesses still haven’t made a serious case for its legitimacy. Jesus inspected all the religious sects on the earth in 1919 and chose them. According to whom? And that’s the rub. There are no witnesses who can attest to the Lord’s selection, no angelic visits, no prophetic announcements, no declarations from Heaven, no priestly lines. So if one’s foundational claims are not correct, one’s claims to the gift of the Holy Spirit cannot have validity. Also, in the ancient church, members were first baptized by immersion and then given the gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands. This is the baptism of water and of the Holy Spirit. The Jehovah's Witnesses only baptize by water. Very few Christian churches purport to do the latter. Finally, even if the Society had the gift of the Holy Spirit, it wouldn’t mean it was infallible. The ancient apostles made it quite clear that everything wasn’t handed to them on a platter.

Wherever there’s an organization of people, there will be folks who seek power, gain and social status. Early on, as a Methodist and later, as a non-denominational church member, I noticed that most pastors, priests, reverends, whatever, love to get invited to members’ houses for dinner, but none that I ever saw ever reciprocated. My wife’s priest and his wife (Eastern Orthodox) have been over a few times, but we’ve never been invited to their home. And we go in various restaurants around town and see photos of him and his wife enjoying dinner with parish members, and I guarantee he’s never sprained his hand reaching for the check! So it’s not just the Jehovah's Witnesses. It’s all politics.

15

JWs and Gog and MaGog...What Gives?

by Cold Steel in

so how does gog and magog pertain to jehovah's witnesses?

the latter-day battle is described in ezekiel 38-39, and it doesn't mention jehovah's witnesses anywhere.

the prophet does write, however: .

Cold Steel

Calebs: Okay, I'll bite. What was so terrifying about GOD'S KINGDOM OF A THOUSAND YEARS HAS APPROACHED? I think I read it years ago, but didn't find it particularly terrifying. But then, I wasn't 10!

I do, however, recall being terrified when I read part of a book by Albert Einstein at about that age. The offending passage was (I'll never forget it), "The sun is slowly, but surely, dying out." It was an old book at the time, so how many years did we have left, I wondered.

Is there a place where you can read out-of-print JW books like the one you mentioned?

15

JWs and Gog and MaGog...What Gives?

by Cold Steel in

so how does gog and magog pertain to jehovah's witnesses?

the latter-day battle is described in ezekiel 38-39, and it doesn't mention jehovah's witnesses anywhere.

the prophet does write, however: .

Cold Steel

In some religions, there’s a debate whether Armageddon and the battle of Gog and Magog are the same. I believe they are the same, though there’s a very brief battle of the same name at the end of the Millennium. More than likely those who fight against God at that time will do so billing it at the continuation of the first battle and vowing a different outcome.

As one non-JW author puts it:

The Battle of Armageddon
Ezekiel knew that at a certain point following the return of the Jews to Palestine, and after they had built up the land and its cities, there would be a monumental military conflict which would precede the manifestation of the Messiah unto them.
Ezekiel said a great conquering host would come out of the north. He identified them as a massive military coalition of the people of Magog, Tubal and Meshech. These are three of the sons of Japheth, father of the Gentiles, whose descendants became the principal settlers of Europe and Asia. Their leader is identified by Ezekiel as “Gog,” who is the dictatorial commander general or “chief prince” over all these hosts. The Lord said this army would come over the land “like a cloud” and that it would be an unprovoked assault against defenseless cities. There would be savage fighting “throughout all my mountains,” the Lord said.
It is at this point that we digress long enough to examine the writings of Joel. His entire vision pertained to this period of terrible warfare and struggle just prior to the manifestation of the Messiah. We do not have any certain way of determining exactly when Joel wrote, but it is believed to have been long before this, probably in the eighth or ninth century B.C. The first two chapters of Joel have great significance for people living in an age of atomic warfare and mechanized cavalry.
He describes what the war against Judah will be like and the modern reader may well be astonished at some of the details. He says seeds will not grow in the ground, the land will be completely defoliated, “for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field. The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.” Joel describes a great war-like people who use fire as a weapon of desolation. He says that “there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it.... A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”
Joel tried to describe what he saw: “The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.” But these were like no other horses he had ever seen. Notice this bold attempt to describe the strange mobile units which he saw: “Like the noise of chariots [not horses] on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble...they shall run like mighty men [once again the simile changes]; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; and they devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”
Joel tried to describe what he saw: “The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.” But these were like no other horses he had ever seen. Notice this bold attempt to describe the strange mobile units which he saw: “Like the noise of chariots [not horses] on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble...they shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; and they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble.”
It sounds very much as though he were attempting to describe a modern armored division rumbling across a city with cannon and flame-throwers spreading destruction all around. Joel recommended that when the people of Judah see this great gentile juggernaut sweeping toward them they should go into fasting and prayer, for without God’s help they will never survive.
He cried, “Rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God.... Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: gather the people, sanctify the congregation...let them say, Spare thy people, O Lord, and give not thine heritage to reproach.... Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Yea, the Lord will answer and say...I will remove far off from you the northern army.”

Ezekiel was also told that in this hour of distress the Lord would manifest his power. The Lord said divine judgments would issue forth for a considerable period of time to keep his people from being immediately conquered.

The apostle John states that the source of many of these divine judgments would will be two prophets raised up to the Jews who will help them greatly in standing up this enemy. (See Revelation 11) And most Christians believe this is how the final great battle will go down. Taking his prophecy, which seemingly speaks of modern warfare, there’s no way any of this would be applicable to the Jehovah's Witnesses of the early 21st Century.

Or can it?

In all the articles I've read in the Watchtower and Awake! magazines, not one addresses these biblical prophecies as interpreted literally. They all speak of Armageddon being a final, monumental battle between GOOD and EVIL. And they're very indistinct about the identities of Gog and Magog.

15

JWs and Gog and MaGog...What Gives?

by Cold Steel in

so how does gog and magog pertain to jehovah's witnesses?

the latter-day battle is described in ezekiel 38-39, and it doesn't mention jehovah's witnesses anywhere.

the prophet does write, however: .

Cold Steel

So how does Gog and Magog pertain to Jehovah's Witnesses?

The latter-day battle is described in Ezekiel 38-39, and it doesn't mention Jehovah's Witnesses anywhere. The prophet does write, however:

And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. Thus saith the Lord God ; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God , that my fury shall come up in my face.

So this great, vast army will come up against the Jehovah's Witnesses as a cloud to cover the land of Brooklyn, New York? And when Gog shall come up against the land of Brooklyn, saith Jehovah, that my fury shall come up in my face"?

The Watchtower states:

Still, Jehovah will not destroy at random. Some humans will be saved. "You went forth for the salvation of your people, to save your anointed one," says Habakkuk 3:13. Yes, Jehovah will save his faithful anointed servants. The destruction of Babylon the Great, the world empire of false religion, will then be complete. Today, however, the nations are trying to wipe out pure worship. Soon, Jehovah's servants will be attacked by the forces of Gog of Magog. Watchtower 2000 Feb 1 p.22

It should be a sight to see. How, do they suppose, will they come to be so significant to someone like Gog? Will a world tyrant wake up one morning and say, "Let's go make war against...lemme see...Mormons, no...Seventh Day Adventists, no...Baptists? Tempting, but no. Hey, how about the Jehovah's Witnesses? Yeah...that's the ticket!" Then one day they will sweep out of the North, meaning Canada, if they're going to be targeting Brooklyn, and thee seige will be on. Now it makes sense that a major force would attack Israel. One, Israel has powerful enemies, and two, the scriptures say it will be Israel.

Can someone explain this, seriously?

14

After Armageddon...Then What?

by Cold Steel in

i've read the sarcastic short stories about it, but seriously, i'm stumped.. after armageddon, what then?

yeah, i know they'll bury our bodies or cart them off to be burned, but then the earth will become paradise and then what??

seriously, what do they (the leaders) do to remain relevant?.

Cold Steel

I wonder if there will be publishing? Will there be any need for Bibles and Watchtowers? Will there be articles like "Armageddon: Why It Took So Long" or "Governing Body Announces 'Our Mistake...Birthdays Okay All Along!'" There might even be an article entitled: "Chistmas Changed to December 26! No Longer a 'Pagan' Holiday!"

14

After Armageddon...Then What?

by Cold Steel in

i've read the sarcastic short stories about it, but seriously, i'm stumped.. after armageddon, what then?

yeah, i know they'll bury our bodies or cart them off to be burned, but then the earth will become paradise and then what??

seriously, what do they (the leaders) do to remain relevant?.

Cold Steel

Fernando: Many religious people say that Armageddon is a battle. But early in the 19th century, Bible scholar Adam Clarke wrote: “How ridiculous have been the conjectures of men relative to this point! Within the last twenty years this battle has been fought at various places, according to our purblind seers and self-inspired prophets! At one time it was Austerlitz, at another Moscow, at another Leipsic, and now Waterloo! And thus they have gone on, and will go on, confounding and being confounded.”

Armageddon is not Ragnorak, despite what the Society thinks. And Adam Clarke was a product of his times, remember. The Jews had not gathered back to the lands of its inheritance, nor did the prospects of them building their temple seem to be encouraging. Prophecy states that Armageddon will be the culminating battle in which the "Beast" (or "Gog" or the "Antichrist") is destroyed with his armies and in which Jesus would return, convert the Jews and bring about the promised Millennium. Clarke, and of course, the Bible students, could not see the prophecy materializing literally because Palestine still had not realized its prophetic destiny.

All that has changed now. Israel is a nation, it has many powerful enemies who have promised holy war if the Dome of the Rock and the mosque, which occupy the place where the Jews will build their temple. So the JWs are clearly behind the times. But since they've gone too far down the road, they really can't change horses in midstream.

If, for the sake of argument, we say the JWs are correct about Armageddon being the classic battle between good and evil, I just wondered if they had any "plans" once Armageddon happened.

Also, according to the GB, is it an event that can happen at any time? And once it does, what will be, according to them, the new lines of authority? Will the GB be in charge until further notice??

5

If Luke 16:19-31 is fictional then would that not apply to Matthew 24:45-47 as well

by I_love_Jeff in

how do the jehovah's witnesses determine which parable is to be taken literally, such as matthew 24:45-47, and which one, for example luke 16:19-31, is an allegory?.

are both parables not open to interpretation in the eyes of the jehovah's witnesses?

are they using the eisegetical approach to scripture?.

Cold Steel

Luke 16:19-31:

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Matthew 24:45-47

Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

I can't speak for the WTBTS, but scriptural exegesis normally favors those who are doing the interpreting. In Luke, most would argue that Jesus never gave a parable that wasn't, in many ways, true to life. In the allegory that Luke gives, a man who had thought of nothing but himself on earth found himself entreating the righeous Lazarus, who had died and now sat in the bosom of Abraham. It's a compelling story about a man who failed to keep his first estate and was forced to beg for mercy from a man whom he had held in disdain during life.

Then in Matthew, the Lord is speaking of his own coming in the latter days. Those who are prepared for his coming will be those he rewards. Thus it is, he will reward his faithful and wise servant who he finds doing his will. A few things here:

the servant will be of the Lord's authorized household
he will be the ruler over his household
he will feed and care for the rest of the staff
that servant will be exalted to being a ruler over all things

The GB cannot be this servant because, like the first parable, not a prophecy of future events. It's a teaching aid.

The "faithful and wise" servant is not self-appointed or self-acclaimed, but is of the Lord's authorized household and the Lord must recognize his servants, for it is his household.

Because it is not a prophecy, the parable explains the rewards of those authorized servants who prepare themselvs for the Lord's coming by serving others; for the greatest man in the Lord's house is the greatest servant. In the time before the Lord's arrival, that servant who is busy serving others will be exalted by the Lord at his coming. In other words, the Lord's servants who prepare for their Lord's coming and are not found sleeping shall be rewarded. It's not "one" servant, but many; for it applies to all of the Lord's servants who await his coming.

14

After Armageddon...Then What?

by Cold Steel in

i've read the sarcastic short stories about it, but seriously, i'm stumped.. after armageddon, what then?

yeah, i know they'll bury our bodies or cart them off to be burned, but then the earth will become paradise and then what??

seriously, what do they (the leaders) do to remain relevant?.

Cold Steel

I've read the sarcastic short stories about it, but seriously, I'm stumped.

After Armageddon, what then? Yeah, I know they'll bury our bodies or cart them off to be burned, but then the earth will become Paradise and then what?? Seriously, what do they (the leaders) do to remain relevant?

First, aren't those with the "heavenly hope" going to be the rulers of Earth? Isn't that going to part of their jobs? But what about the Kingdom Halls? Are they going to be necessary, according to today's leaders? Will there be any disciplinary action or will all the survivors all be perfect? What can one expect of the new leadership? Have any church manuals addressed these things?

And finally, do you think the Governing Body really believes that their convoluted concept of Armageddon is really right around the corner? Does anyone on this site even know a GB member? How devout are they regarding their own doctrine?

Anyway, I was just curious about what happens next?

...

14

Are people like Abraham, Isaiah or Jeremiah in heaven ?

by Durden in

i am discussing with my father about various subjects and this is one of them.. what arguments can i use to support this "doctrine" (so to say) ?.

i am looking for texts to support this (i knew quite a few, i just to learn something new).

thanks in advance.

Cold Steel

Are you speaking of the doctrine that man has an eternal spirit? Or are you asking if Abraham and other patriarchs and/or prophets are now in Heaven?
Regarding the latter, Heaven, as it pertains to us, is not yet in existence. It is what the earth will become after our resurrections. The inhabitants of the earth were first destroyed by water, which symbolized its baptism. Next, it will be cleansed by fire, which represents the baptism of fire and the Holy Spirit. Finally, at the end of the Millennium, this world will go through a “death” and “resurrection” of its own. After the former, the earth will be instantly transformed into the abode of the righteous. There will be no “paradise earth” with gardens and eternal picnics and family reunions that will last forever. Man’s resurrection, according to the apostle John, will be glorious and like unto the Savior’s resurrection. The earth will be radiating glory, and those inhabiting it will be beings of incredible light and glory. The idea that man will go back to being like Adam and Eve is incredibly WRONG. As the Greek Orthodox teach, “Jesus became as we are so that we might become as he is.” That’s why Adam and Eve fell, so that, through Christ, we might take a giant leap upward and become one with Christ and the Father. In short, the Father had every intention that man would fall. And through Jesus, we might not again become as Adam, but become as Christ in power and light, inheriting all that the Father has.
If God the Father is God, and Jesus Christ is God, and we can be one with them, then we have incredible potential. But as Paul wrote: “Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the father of spirits, and live?” (Hebrews 12:9) Also: “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of god: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:14-18)
For the Jehovah's Witnesses to believe that man has no spirit, how do they reconcile the above? The prophet Zechariah wrote: “ The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord , which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. ” (Zech. 12:1)
I cannot conceive of God being the father of “breaths” instead of spirits. Or forming the “breath” of man within him. True, the word breath in both Hebrew and Greek can mean either breath or spirit. One must use context to differentiate between the two in any given passage, and most Christians (and Jews) in many cases translates the words “spirit” while the Adventists, many times in the face of overwhelming logic, do just the reverse. In school we covered both interpretations in the various languages and passages, and while people on both sides of the issue can push their interpretations, our professor said, the Adventists are in the distinct minority.